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on this episode of skeptic oh wait a

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minute I've heard you say this before do

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you think for a second that this idea

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that recasting Jesus from this a born of

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a virgin

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son of God God on earth being to someone

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who's well schooled in and theagenes in

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healing there is no way that's going to

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fly with modern day Christianity whether

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you believe in all the other stories

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about the Bible you can and it is not

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contradictory to a belief system that

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says that Jesus was the son of God if

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that is your belief to contemplate that

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he could have realized his divinity

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through and theages stay with us for

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics of course have to have

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their critics in there your host Alex

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acaricide on this episode a really

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interesting topic that we've touched on

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only slightly here and there and I'm

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glad to bring it center stage dr. Jerry

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Brown along with his wife Julie brown

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have written a book the psychedelic

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Gospels so the issue here is something

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you've probably heard about you know

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we're psychedelics a part of early

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Christian history spoiler alert

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yes they were here's an anthropologist

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who has looked into it extensively and

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kind of nailed it he has all the artwork

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all the analysis all the stuff that's

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kind of beyond question but of course

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this is skeptical we want to go much

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further than that and the questions that

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I really want to pull apart were a what

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does that mean does it mean like some

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atheists take it that Christianity is

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just Punk because those we're just

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trippin you know I mean that's the

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that's the the takeaway there from the

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atheist side now there's a nother side

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there's a super progressive Christian

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and please don't ask me to point this

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person out because I don't know who or

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where they are who would believe that

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okay the Christian narrative about Jesus

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and son of God and virgin birth and all

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that stuff that's still intact and he

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was introducing psychedelic mushrooms as

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well and that has to be in play too here

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because as you'll hear that's kind of in

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play for Jerry and then there's this

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vast middle ground of you know who was

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this figure Jesus what role have these

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psychedelics I hate the term ethnic

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jinns but you know what role have they

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played in the development of of

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religions of wisdom traditions of people

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just experiencing these extended realms

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so really interesting topic a lot to

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pull apart there and we try and do it

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all in this interview with dr. Jerry

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Brown

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skeptic Oh Jerry is an anthropologist

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who along with his wife Julie who is a

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psychotherapist have written the

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psychedelic Gospels the secret history

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of hallucinogens in Christianity Jerry

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welcome to skeptic oh it's a pleasure to

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be here thank you I so dirt this idea

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that psychedelics have somehow played a

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role in Christianity and in a broader

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sense maybe some or all the world's

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religions is something that's been out

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there for a while and has picked up some

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steam in the last 20 years or so but it

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looks like you're really bringing

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something new to this discussion

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certainly a rigor and research academic

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background that I don't know has been

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there before was that your intent and

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how did you get started in looking at

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this well let me let me start off by

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talking about how we got started and

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looking at this and then come back to

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your question about you know the the

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rigor etc I'm an anthropologist by

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training and after my first LSD

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experience I which was I was in a

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tumultuous time in my life and a set

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that I came into it was quite unsettling

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and I had a difficult experience and I

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took it as both a challenge and an

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opportunity to learn more much more

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about psychedelics and so as a founding

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professor of anthropology at Florida

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International University in Miami I

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designed and taught in 1975 of course

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called hallucinogens in culture which

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was still offered today it might be the

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first University catalogue course for

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credit course on psychedelics in the US

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I'm not positive about that

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in any case in the process and I can

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talk more about the course it was it

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starts out with indigenous use of

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hallucinogens in psychedelics and

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theagenes in shamanism

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to classical cultures of Greece in India

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and concludes with the what I call the

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modern Psychonauts the Timothy Leary's

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the ramadasa is the John lilies of the

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world so in the process I became quite

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familiar with ethnobotany

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and the ethno mycology the way in which

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different cultures use and relate to the

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mushroom world then in 2006 on an

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anniversary trip to Scotland my wife

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Julie and I decided to visit Rosslyn

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Chapel

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inspired by the mansion of Rosslyn in

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Dan Brown's book and film The Da Vinci

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Code the jury let me just add a joke

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with a quick question here at this point

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did you have any sense that you were

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going to investigate this connection

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further this long interest you'd had in

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hallucinogens and the early Christian

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kind of perspective did you have any

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sense of that none whatsoever in fact

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quite the contrary as we point out in

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the book having you know cut my teeth on

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the groundbait braking and pioneering

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studies of Gordon Watson who whose

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poetic writings and erudite research

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gave wings to the young field of ethno

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mycology I also had accepted his

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authoritative conclusion that

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psychedelics or as we like to call them

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entheogens

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plants that and chemicals that generate

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the divine within that entheogen had

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ended a thousand in the judeo-christian

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tradition had ended a thousand years

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before the coming of Christianity so I

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had kind of closed that door with many

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other scholars taking Wasson's

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observations as correct and had no

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inkling prior to visiting Rosslyn Chapel

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and the events that unfolded after that

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fateful visit that I would ever be

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researching this topic not not in a

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million years let me just ask you you

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tell the great story in the book about

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the experience that you had sitting in

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this cafe

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you're exhausted from the trip it's a

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great story can you retell it it gets

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such a great turning point in the book

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sure so so at Rosslyn I was fascinated

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by these hundred green men because

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Rosslyn is a synthesis it's a Catholic

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Church but it is in a 15th century

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incredible synthesis of pagan and

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Catholic symbolism and there are over a

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hundred griemann there and they're

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protruding down from the ceiling in a

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stone boss is what I consider to be

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explained the griemann thing the green

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greement or fertility symbols they have

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a kind of fierce fecundity about them

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they're found throughout Europe there

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are taverns named the green man but

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green man images from India you can find

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them from India to Europe and churches

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and in other places kind of gargoyle is

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looking things if you die not not really

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but not at general not as a grotesque as

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gargoyles but certainly interesting

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faces with a variety of emotional

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expressions and very often with vines

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and tendrils growing out of the eyes

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growing into the nostrils around the

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mouth so they're they're wrapped in

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Earth symbolism and this one particular

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green man head that that kind of glares

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enigmatic aliy and somewhat sardonically

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down from the ceiling right over the

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most sacred part of the church that the

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altars in the front where worship is

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conducted and mass is conducted

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I found a moment a plaster replica of

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this grand man head in the gift shop

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in Rosslyn Chapel bought it put it into

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my knapsack and then Julie and I

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traveled a little more and we came to

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visit st. Andrews and when we arrived in

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st. Andrews a hot thirsty hip fatigued

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from our trip out of the Cairngorm

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mountains in Scotland we drove I put

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this Julie had gone to the ladies room I

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put the green mint I reached for the map

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I found the green man head I put it down

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on the table the red and white checkered

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table in this Italian restaurant and

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absent-mindedly

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turned it around 180 degrees and found

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myself staring at a replica sculptured

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replica of a psychedelic Amanita

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muscaria mushroom

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sculpted upside down into the far head

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right over the pineal gland of this

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green man did you recognize it

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immediately I did and as a as someone

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who's schooled in botany as you were you

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know because you'd investigated all this

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what would tell you that that was that

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particular mushroom and what did that

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mean to you at the time did you

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immediately make that connection yes I

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immediately made that connection it was

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the you know it was represented the

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stages of the growth of Amanita it had

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the bulb at the bottom it had the veil

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where the AH Moneta sheds when it comes

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up white and then this white veil peels

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back revealing the red mushroom ending

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up the white so it ends up red with sort

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of white speckles or dots on it which

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are the remains of the white filament or

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veil and there it was and a few years

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later when we were writing the book I

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ran into Tilly and I had dinner with

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Paul Stamets the eminent mycologist one

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of the most eminent mycologists in the

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world and I asked Paul Paul I've

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identified this as aa Moneta muscari and

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I'd appreciate it if you would take a

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look at it he looked at it and he said

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this is a taxonomically correct

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Amanita muscaria and I said are you sure

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and he said absolutely he laughs he

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pulls out his laptop Paul Stamets and he

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shows me his other pictures of other

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mushrooms that he found during his visit

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to Rosslyn Chapel so now not only had I

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identified it but one of the world's

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most eminent mycologist Paul Stamets

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confirmed the identification as atomic

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taxonomically correct this is the AMA

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Needham Iscariot

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which is used in ritual shamanism by the

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three hundred thousand reindeer herders

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who are spread throughout Russia from

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Siberia all the way to Central Russia

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all the way over to the Scandinavian

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Peninsula it is also the famous soma of

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the Hindu ribbon

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which was identified by Gordon Watson in

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his round great ground brick which was

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identified by Gordon Watson in his

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ground breaking and seminal book soma

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divine mushroom of immortality as the

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enigmatic plant that was worshipped as a

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God a plant in the juice of the plant in

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the Hindu Rig Veda 3500 year old one of

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the world's oldest religious scriptures

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00:12:35,199 --> 00:12:33,110
and one of the oldest Vettes so what's

274
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:35,209
the significance of finding this in

275
00:12:41,049 --> 00:12:38,959
Rosslyn Chapel okay so here what is this

276
00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:41,059
saying to us what is this telling us

277
00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:43,929
that there's a psychoactive mushroom in

278
00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:46,399
sculpted in one of the most prominent

279
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sacred places of Rosslyn Chapel what was

280
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:51,290
William st. Clair the founder of Rosslyn

281
00:12:55,869 --> 00:12:53,569
Chapel trying to communicate if anything

282
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:55,879
and now my our mind started racing did

283
00:13:00,309 --> 00:12:58,160
it mean was this a hint that there were

284
00:13:02,919 --> 00:13:00,319
psychoactive plants in Christian art

285
00:13:05,379 --> 00:13:02,929
would there be other churches that had

286
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:05,389
psychoactive plants was this a secret

287
00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:08,089
practice that went back all the way

288
00:13:11,499 --> 00:13:09,649
through Christian history through

289
00:13:15,579 --> 00:13:11,509
medieval times to early Christian church

290
00:13:17,319 --> 00:13:15,589
even into the life of Jesus and the

291
00:13:20,319 --> 00:13:17,329
disciples in other words was this the

292
00:13:22,869 --> 00:13:20,329
original Eucharist so now our heads are

293
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:22,879
spinning we're speculating wildly we

294
00:13:26,859 --> 00:13:24,410
have challenged what we know is

295
00:13:29,169 --> 00:13:26,869
reasonable we have come to the almost

296
00:13:31,659 --> 00:13:29,179
the rambunctious overthrow of Reason and

297
00:13:34,509 --> 00:13:31,669
then the words of Carl Sagan the famous

298
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:34,519
astrophysicist stopped us and Carl Sagan

299
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:36,850
among many wonderful sayings in

300
00:13:41,619 --> 00:13:38,569
extraordinary claims require

301
00:13:42,850 --> 00:13:41,629
extraordinary evidence I just have to

302
00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:42,860
stop you there that's a pet peeve of

303
00:13:47,259 --> 00:13:45,529
mine that is about the worst this

304
00:13:49,359 --> 00:13:47,269
representation what science is all about

305
00:13:51,729 --> 00:13:49,369
that I've ever heard there there is you

306
00:13:55,449 --> 00:13:51,739
know this as an anthropologist that is

307
00:13:57,039 --> 00:13:55,459
completely wrong science is science we

308
00:13:59,199 --> 00:13:57,049
can't have a layer on top of it that

309
00:14:01,659 --> 00:13:59,209
says this is extraordinary and we need

310
00:14:05,949 --> 00:14:01,669
extraordinary claims for the but not at

311
00:14:08,889 --> 00:14:05,959
all I take exception with you when when

312
00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:08,899
Darwin wrote evolution when he wrote

313
00:14:14,859 --> 00:14:12,169
Origin of Species he went he knew this

314
00:14:17,230 --> 00:14:14,869
was an extraordinary claim and Watson's

315
00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:17,240
been compared to Darwin I don't think

316
00:14:21,550 --> 00:14:18,110
fairly

317
00:14:23,079 --> 00:14:21,560
but he knew especially even though there

318
00:14:25,990 --> 00:14:23,089
were a hundred years of evolutionary

319
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:26,000
writings before him the blowback that

320
00:14:30,670 --> 00:14:28,910
was going to come yeah but I don't want

321
00:14:32,740 --> 00:14:30,680
to get us too far afield here the point

322
00:14:36,130 --> 00:14:32,750
is just this the enterprise of science

323
00:14:38,319 --> 00:14:36,140
is to remove us from our bias to set up

324
00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:38,329
of the peer-review process the

325
00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:41,769
evaluation by our peers so that

326
00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:44,870
institution and that system science is a

327
00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:46,670
method it's it's not a position

328
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:48,860
statement should remove us from the need

329
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:50,720
for saying extraordinary this

330
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:52,310
extraordinary that it's beside the point

331
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:55,040
no it's not beside the point because in

332
00:14:59,639 --> 00:14:56,930
making the claims that we were going to

333
00:15:04,620 --> 00:14:59,649
make John Allegro made these claims

334
00:15:07,449 --> 00:15:04,630
years ago in the 1960s in his book a

335
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:07,459
sacred mushroom in the cross he did it

336
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:10,370
on the basis of dubious linguistic

337
00:15:18,430 --> 00:15:16,370
evidence and his career and he also made

338
00:15:20,889 --> 00:15:18,440
the what I think the outrageous claim

339
00:15:23,139 --> 00:15:20,899
that Jesus did not exist as a historical

340
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:23,149
person but was actually a metaphor for

341
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:24,740
the psychedelic mushroom and the entire

342
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:27,199
old and new testament was a hidden code

343
00:15:32,650 --> 00:15:30,320
for psychedelic mushrooms his his career

344
00:15:35,050 --> 00:15:32,660
was destroyed over it his daughter and

345
00:15:37,810 --> 00:15:35,060
biographer Judith Brown who wrote the

346
00:15:39,490 --> 00:15:37,820
book you know gianmarco Allegro maverick

347
00:15:40,990 --> 00:15:39,500
maverick of the Dead Sea Scrolls he was

348
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:41,000
an eminent Dead Sea scroll up scholar

349
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:44,720
said had he had more images he only had

350
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,850
one of psychedelics and Christian art

351
00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:48,800
which is included in our book from

352
00:15:53,829 --> 00:15:52,100
playing chorale France maybe his work

353
00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:53,839
would have been better received so I

354
00:15:57,579 --> 00:15:55,790
knew the history of this and I knew that

355
00:16:00,819 --> 00:15:57,589
we'd better have extraordinary evidence

356
00:16:02,410 --> 00:16:00,829
and that we needed to undertake a

357
00:16:05,250 --> 00:16:02,420
journey throughout Europe in the Middle

358
00:16:11,079 --> 00:16:05,260
East to examine churches cathedrals

359
00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:11,089
Abbey's chapels to see if we could find

360
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:14,089
other visual evidence of psychedelics

361
00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:15,860
prominently displayed in Christian art

362
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:17,990
and by that I mean in stained glass

363
00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:22,160
windows in illuminated or Bibles Bibles

364
00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:25,070
with drawings and in them in sculpture

365
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:29,700
in mosaics in frescoes and indeed we did

366
00:16:35,150 --> 00:16:31,890
help me understand what you are looking

367
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:35,160
for at that point because you know one

368
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:37,770
of the problems with this topic and you

369
00:16:42,770 --> 00:16:40,170
alluded to it a little bit is one

370
00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:42,780
atheistic folks latch on to this idea

371
00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:44,340
like you just said and that's not just

372
00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:47,760
Allegro many people sense have said you

373
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:49,830
know it's it's a way to kind of write

374
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:52,410
off Christianity and religion in general

375
00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:54,450
hey it's there's nothing divine there's

376
00:16:59,180 --> 00:16:57,030
no extended consciousness realm it's

377
00:17:02,360 --> 00:16:59,190
just people tripping you know that's all

378
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:02,370
it is so there's that part of it but

379
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:04,170
then there's also the the deep

380
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:07,230
spirituality part that says this is some

381
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:10,230
doorway connection to these extended

382
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:12,690
consciousness realms that join all

383
00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:16,530
religions so I guess one question would

384
00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:19,140
be at this point did you have some bias

385
00:17:24,650 --> 00:17:21,390
and then my follow-on question is going

386
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:24,660
to be how do you sort out those two very

387
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:28,890
different kind of conclusions or ways to

388
00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:32,480
take the the basic idea that

389
00:17:38,590 --> 00:17:34,980
hallucinogens Ethne jhin's are somehow

390
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:38,600
at play with the spiritual experience

391
00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:41,760
that's a really excellent excellent

392
00:17:47,020 --> 00:17:44,820
question and as we say in the invitation

393
00:17:51,220 --> 00:17:47,030
to readers at the beginning of our book

394
00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:51,230
that julie and i had our initial

395
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:54,030
experiences with the divine through

396
00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:56,970
psychedelics in the 1960s and 1970s and

397
00:18:03,530 --> 00:17:58,770
we saw them in our own personal

398
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:03,540
experience as a pathway to the divine

399
00:18:10,370 --> 00:18:06,990
presence or whatever you would like are

400
00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:10,380
the into the intelligence that runs and

401
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:14,280
permeates the universe as LSD research

402
00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:17,520
has indicated and so we did not see this

403
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:20,550
as a confirmation of atheistic thinking

404
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:23,570
we knew that shamanistic cultures

405
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:26,250
throughout history and including many

406
00:18:31,550 --> 00:18:28,290
that are living today in South America

407
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:31,560
and Africa and Asia use psychedelics as

408
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:34,110
the portal to the supernatural and the

409
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,050
divine world we don't see this as

410
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:39,360
conflicting with that in fact we quote

411
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:41,970
brother David Stendhal wrost who is from

412
00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:42,970
the priest

413
00:18:47,820 --> 00:18:44,950
from the order of st. Benedict who said

414
00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:47,830
the following if I can experience God

415
00:18:53,130 --> 00:18:51,340
through a sunset on a mountaintop why

416
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:53,140
not through a mushroom prayerfully

417
00:18:59,070 --> 00:18:56,110
ingested so we came down and there's

418
00:19:01,440 --> 00:18:59,080
much research including the miracle at

419
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:01,450
Marsh Chapel which proved that synthetic

420
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:03,910
psilocybin in a double-blind experiment

421
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:07,840
conducted in 1962 by Walter Peggy could

422
00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:12,400
create authentic mystical experiences we

423
00:19:16,530 --> 00:19:14,230
better back up there and why don't you

424
00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:16,540
talk through that experiment real

425
00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:18,100
briefly and there's a couple points I

426
00:19:24,210 --> 00:19:20,500
want you to touch on afterwards one is

427
00:19:27,150 --> 00:19:24,220
synthetic because that then takes us out

428
00:19:28,620 --> 00:19:27,160
of the the natural part of it and some

429
00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:28,630
of that some of the shamanistic stuff

430
00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:30,520
has to be kind of called into question

431
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:32,800
there and the other thing is when you

432
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:36,160
say the the experience you know the

433
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:38,530
divine experience or then what are we

434
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:40,570
really talking about it because that

435
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:44,170
asks the question of is it an experience

436
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:47,770
or is it something more you know because

437
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:49,360
we can have experiences but those don't

438
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:51,610
necessarily suggest that there is an

439
00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:53,770
extended consciousness realm

440
00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:55,480
I've probably laid too much on the table

441
00:19:59,700 --> 00:19:57,340
there but tell us about that experiment

442
00:20:04,080 --> 00:19:59,710
not at all not at all let me let me walk

443
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:04,090
you through on the this and just to put

444
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:08,080
one point aside i wasin found a little

445
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:10,990
about synthetics wasn't found a living

446
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:14,170
mushroom call tomorrow Mazatec indians

447
00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:18,370
of Oaxaca in Mexico and he went down

448
00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:20,260
there and he was invited he participated

449
00:20:28,890 --> 00:20:26,100
in psilocybin mushroom experiences that

450
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:28,900
material of psilocybin mushrooms was

451
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:30,640
sent to Albert Hofmann the discoverer of

452
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:35,130
LSD who is a chemist pharmaceutics from

453
00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:37,690
pharmacologist at his lab in in

454
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:39,220
switzerland he was able to make

455
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:42,010
synthetic psilocybin it was brought to

456
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:44,950
maria sabina the famous Mazatec

457
00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:47,110
shemitah's and she found it to be the

458
00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:50,500
same experience so it's interesting on

459
00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:53,100
that count it is also interesting that

460
00:21:00,180 --> 00:20:56,380
Huston the famous scholar

461
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:00,190
our religion gave independent objective

462
00:21:05,790 --> 00:21:03,760
readers LSD writings and writings of

463
00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:05,800
Christian mystics and they couldn't tell

464
00:21:10,410 --> 00:21:07,900
which were which so I just wanted to

465
00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:10,420
make that point now to come back to your

466
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:12,280
basic question about the miracle of

467
00:21:18,690 --> 00:21:14,410
marce Chapel also known as the Good

468
00:21:20,430 --> 00:21:18,700
Friday experience this took place it was

469
00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:20,440
conducted by Walter pahnke

470
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:22,540
who designed it under Timothy Leary's

471
00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:24,730
Harvard psilocybin project obviously

472
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:27,750
before Leary and his colleagues were

473
00:21:34,770 --> 00:21:31,600
expelled from the Harvard faculty what

474
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:34,780
they did was on Good Friday 1962 Pankey

475
00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:38,350
divided randomly divided 20 volunteer

476
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:41,020
protestant divinity students into two

477
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:45,760
groups in a small chapel in in marche in

478
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:49,330
the under under rooms of Marche chapel

479
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:51,850
half of the students received capsules

480
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:54,130
containing 30 milligrams of milligrams

481
00:21:59,850 --> 00:21:56,470
of psilocybin and the other half

482
00:22:02,790 --> 00:21:59,860
received a placebo niacin vitamin b3

483
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:02,800
which makes you feel flushed the results

484
00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:06,340
were compelling 9 out of the 10 subjects

485
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:08,680
divinity students who received

486
00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:12,810
psilocybin reported profound mystical

487
00:22:24,140 --> 00:22:17,350
experiences and only one of the control

488
00:22:27,870 --> 00:22:24,150
group did this in fact the Houston Smith

489
00:22:29,670 --> 00:22:27,880
who then was a student went on to write

490
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:29,680
several books about it Theo genic plants

491
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:31,750
he described this march tavleks v

492
00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:33,310
session as one of the most powerful

493
00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:36,220
cosmic as the most powerful cosmic

494
00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:39,790
homecoming I have ever experienced 25

495
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:43,000
years later Rick Doblin the founder of

496
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:45,850
maps the multidisciplinary Association

497
00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:48,370
for psychedelic studies max org did a

498
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:50,860
follow-up study he found seven of those

499
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:53,200
nine students who had the mystical

500
00:22:59,130 --> 00:22:56,290
experience and they confirmed that it

501
00:23:02,030 --> 00:22:59,140
was among the either the most profound

502
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:02,040
or one of the most profound and lost

503
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:06,490
long-lasting events in their life so all

504
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:09,730
this gives us sound expert

505
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:12,730
mental evidence that these experiences

506
00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:16,480
are for the subjects real and Walter

507
00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:18,280
Clark a famous American psychologist

508
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:20,980
wrote there are no experiments known to

509
00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:22,390
me in the history of the scientific

510
00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:24,460
study of religion better designed are

511
00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:27,100
clearer in this conclusion than this one

512
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:30,060
I love this study because it creates an

513
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:32,890
illuminating and a unique fusion Alyx

514
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:37,390
between science and religion you know

515
00:23:40,410 --> 00:23:39,370
some people would scoff at that one of

516
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:40,420
the things that I think is interesting

517
00:23:43,860 --> 00:23:41,710
about it and I love the way you

518
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:43,870
highlight it but I think we should draw

519
00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:45,850
it out even further so these are

520
00:23:49,950 --> 00:23:47,920
divinity students and the reason we

521
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:49,960
think that maybe is significant as we

522
00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:52,210
think hey maybe these people have some

523
00:23:56,970 --> 00:23:54,760
experience with what we're all pointing

524
00:23:59,130 --> 00:23:56,980
to and saying is other something out

525
00:24:00,750 --> 00:23:59,140
there that's that's real in terms of

526
00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:00,760
this whole religious spiritual

527
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:03,190
experience and they're kind of more

528
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:06,250
familiar with it than the rest of the

529
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:08,050
population I mean I don't know that's

530
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:09,850
just kind of implied in the study but I

531
00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:11,650
think it's interesting but here's where

532
00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:13,900
I guess I was really kind of getting at

533
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:16,660
with that and we chatted a little bit

534
00:24:22,530 --> 00:24:20,170
yesterday and I told you about kind of

535
00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:22,540
skeptical and more I don't want to say

536
00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:24,040
the mission but what we always wind up

537
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:27,220
talking about is that consciousness and

538
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:30,370
this idea that there are these extended

539
00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:32,110
realms that were kind of assuming as

540
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:34,750
part of this discussion you know that's

541
00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:38,650
really on the outside of science as we

542
00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:40,390
know it it's certainly on the outside of

543
00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:41,920
neuroscience it's certainly on the

544
00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:44,140
outside of medicine and you can talk

545
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:45,820
about the experimental work that's being

546
00:24:52,110 --> 00:24:49,510
done with psychedelics and for treatment

547
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:52,120
of post-traumatic stress or addiction

548
00:24:58,590 --> 00:24:55,330
hey fabulous all that stuff but it's all

549
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:58,600
based on the premise that you are just

550
00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:01,200
your brain and there's nothing more so

551
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:03,790
talk for a minute if you will I mean

552
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:07,270
connect the dots there in terms of how

553
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:09,520
we how your research how your

554
00:25:16,590 --> 00:25:13,390
investigation gets by this underlying

555
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:16,600
assumption that we are merely a product

556
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:20,320
of our brain yep that is an assumption

557
00:25:25,919 --> 00:25:23,410
of Western science just as

558
00:25:28,919 --> 00:25:25,929
the Newtonian worldview was the

559
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:28,929
fundamental paradigm of Western science

560
00:25:32,669 --> 00:25:31,270
before it was replaced by quantum

561
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:32,679
mechanics and if you're familiar with

562
00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:34,450
Thomas Kuhns the structure of scientific

563
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:37,120
revolution you know science moves along

564
00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:38,770
with people filling in the different

565
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:41,080
pieces of the existing paradigm until

566
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:44,620
enough contrary evidence builds up yeah

567
00:25:48,029 --> 00:25:45,970
but we've had a hundred we've had a

568
00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:48,039
hundred years of contrary evidence and

569
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:49,480
your your friend that you're mentioning

570
00:25:54,810 --> 00:25:52,090
it you know a minute ago Carl Sagan the

571
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:54,820
late great Carl Sagan though all the

572
00:26:01,560 --> 00:25:57,120
evidence was there it's it's a rather

573
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:01,570
organized concerted effort to ignore the

574
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:03,970
evidence ignore the data and continue on

575
00:26:09,090 --> 00:26:07,120
this paradigm that is a non-starter for

576
00:26:10,830 --> 00:26:09,100
this whole discussion I guess I really

577
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:10,840
want to throw that out there because I

578
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:12,010
don't know how we're going to do this

579
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:15,970
end run around around the consciousness

580
00:26:19,890 --> 00:26:17,890
problem well what is it I don't think

581
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:19,900
it's an end run and I understand very

582
00:26:25,260 --> 00:26:23,020
much why yeah you know your program is

583
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:25,270
called skeptical and I respect that very

584
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:27,730
much and you're asking very important

585
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:32,530
questions I believe in my own in Chapter

586
00:26:36,890 --> 00:26:34,240
six of the book the miracle of Mars

587
00:26:39,810 --> 00:26:36,900
chapel I start out with my own

588
00:26:42,330 --> 00:26:39,820
experience of what I can only consider

589
00:26:44,370 --> 00:26:42,340
to be a divine presence coming into my

590
00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:44,380
life in a psychedelic psilocybin

591
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:47,740
experience and I was skeptical until

592
00:26:51,419 --> 00:26:50,320
that happened I had to be very on let's

593
00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:51,429
make sure we're talking about the same

594
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:54,280
thing I'm skeptical of science as we

595
00:27:00,450 --> 00:26:57,610
know it that insists that your

596
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:00,460
consciousness is an epiphenomena of your

597
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:03,250
brain I'm extremely skeptical of that

598
00:27:08,399 --> 00:27:05,530
because I think the evidence doesn't

599
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:08,409
support that and yet it is the

600
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:11,760
fundamental paradigm of neuroscience of

601
00:27:17,299 --> 00:27:15,010
psychology of biology I mean you go

602
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:17,309
through you go into the social sciences

603
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:20,970
anthropology it is it is a crazy bizarre

604
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:23,110
assumption that's being made so just so

605
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:24,820
we're on the same page there right we

606
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:26,890
are definitely on the same page and then

607
00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:29,890
I agree I agree with you completely and

608
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:33,580
I in terms of everything I've read in

609
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:35,440
terms of the information that continues

610
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:36,910
to come out about

611
00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:39,970
spiritual and mystical experiences that

612
00:27:47,610 --> 00:27:42,340
people have from all different

613
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:47,620
backgrounds in with psychedelics I come

614
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:50,080
to the same conclusion and I would defer

615
00:27:55,919 --> 00:27:53,049
of course to stanislav grof who has

616
00:27:59,039 --> 00:27:55,929
conducted more psychedelic trips he's

617
00:28:01,020 --> 00:27:59,049
the father of LSD psychotherapy and

618
00:28:05,370 --> 00:28:01,030
written more books on this subject than

619
00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:05,380
any person in the world and he looks at

620
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:07,030
he has a book one of it calls it is

621
00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:08,710
called when the impossible happens of

622
00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:10,600
all these kinds of experiences from

623
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:13,360
improbable synchronicities to alien

624
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:16,809
visitations that just do not fit within

625
00:28:22,110 --> 00:28:19,570
the realm of normal science and that's

626
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:22,120
why growth after decades of the studies

627
00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:24,490
of consciousness particularly through

628
00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:26,350
the use of psychedelics which he

629
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:29,260
considers to be to the mind as the

630
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:31,120
telescope was to astronomy as the

631
00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:34,270
microphone as the microscope was to

632
00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:37,270
biology and I quote Groff I say I've now

633
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:39,940
firmly believe that consciousness is

634
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:42,790
more than an accidental byproduct of the

635
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:44,410
neuro physiological and biochemical

636
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:46,990
processes taking place in the human

637
00:28:49,710 --> 00:28:47,650
brain

638
00:28:53,159 --> 00:28:49,720
I see consciousness in the human psyche

639
00:28:55,770 --> 00:28:53,169
as expressions and reflections of a

640
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:55,780
cosmic intelligence that permeates the

641
00:29:00,990 --> 00:28:58,000
entire universe and all of existence we

642
00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:01,000
are not just highly evolved animals with

643
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:03,400
biological computers embedded inside our

644
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:03,910
skulls

645
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:06,010
we are also fields of consciousness

646
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:09,370
without limits transcending time space

647
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:13,330
matter and linear causality I think

648
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:15,730
that's where we're going so Jerry let's

649
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:18,130
get back to talking about the book but

650
00:29:25,409 --> 00:29:21,610
let's pick up right there so what do you

651
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:25,419
think is going on with the psychedelic

652
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:29,200
experience in relation to what you just

653
00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:32,230
said about growth about Stan okay so how

654
00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:35,260
is how are we being connected because we

655
00:29:38,669 --> 00:29:36,820
keep talking about and I think it is

656
00:29:40,409 --> 00:29:38,679
directly relevant to the book we keep

657
00:29:42,419 --> 00:29:40,419
talking about the divine and the

658
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:42,429
connection to the vine divine and we're

659
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:43,840
going to talk a minute about the

660
00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:46,510
religions that maybe have sprouted from

661
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:48,460
this well we have to kind of have some

662
00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:49,850
idea of what we

663
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:53,990
think is going on with these compounds

664
00:30:00,610 --> 00:29:57,260
yet what are they connecting us with so

665
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:00,620
what they're connecting us with is this

666
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:05,450
broader trance human our trance personal

667
00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:07,490
consciousness this river of

668
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:09,740
consciousness that flows through the

669
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:11,809
universe and we're a manifestation of it

670
00:30:16,539 --> 00:30:14,289
we're a manifestation of the cosmos

671
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:16,549
participating in its coevolution and

672
00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:19,370
conversing and interacting with it and I

673
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,049
want to bring this back specifically to

674
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:23,600
the book because I don't think and you

675
00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:25,760
know not not complaining because we were

676
00:30:30,159 --> 00:30:27,740
gone in two very important areas but I

677
00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:30,169
want to touch on how this relates to the

678
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:32,630
book the first question of the book is

679
00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:35,360
are there psychedelics and theagenes in

680
00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:38,270
Christian art our answer is we believe

681
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:41,780
convincingly yes as shown by the

682
00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:45,110
multiple images that we found in France

683
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:47,750
and England and Scotland in Germany and

684
00:30:54,850 --> 00:30:50,750
Italy in the Middle East and Turkey and

685
00:30:59,890 --> 00:30:54,860
Egypt number two why are these images

686
00:31:03,070 --> 00:30:59,900
there and we agree with Pope Gregory who

687
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:03,080
in the sixth century said let art be the

688
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:05,510
instruction be the biblical religious

689
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:07,610
instruction of the illiterate because

690
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,260
people could have read up until after

691
00:31:15,159 --> 00:31:11,360
the Gutenberg galaxy and the printing

692
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:15,169
press and so we think they are there

693
00:31:22,510 --> 00:31:19,039
because they reveal a truth that is

694
00:31:25,330 --> 00:31:22,520
sacred to Christianity that divinity can

695
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:25,340
be directly experience the divine

696
00:31:31,529 --> 00:31:28,570
presence of Jesus and the Saints or

697
00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:31,539
whatever form divinity takes in other

698
00:31:37,659 --> 00:31:34,600
religions can be experience

699
00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:37,669
existentially and directly through these

700
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:40,309
plants and that's the reason that they

701
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,799
were there and we connect that back by a

702
00:31:48,730 --> 00:31:44,960
rereading since there was no Christian

703
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:48,740
art before 200 AD for a variety of

704
00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:51,919
reasons we go back into the Gospels and

705
00:31:56,770 --> 00:31:54,350
to the canonical Gospels and even into

706
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:56,780
the Gnostic Gospels and look at them in

707
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:58,490
the context of our theory of the

708
00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:00,559
psychedelic Gospels and believe they

709
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:02,700
were present in the life of

710
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:05,370
Jesus in the disciples so that's why

711
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:07,590
they are there and I know it's difficult

712
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:11,010
I encourage your your listeners to you

713
00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:12,870
know look at our website psychedelic

714
00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:15,900
Gospels calm or to purchase our book

715
00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:17,790
through Amazon or any other bookseller

716
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:20,190
the psychedelic Gospels because the

717
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:23,970
visual imagery is a compelling part of

718
00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:26,370
the argument so that's why we believe

719
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,440
they were there we find that if we link

720
00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:30,480
this to current research these amazing

721
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:32,190
breakthroughs that are happening with

722
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:34,770
the use of MDMA with post-traumatic

723
00:32:41,030 --> 00:32:38,400
stress disorder and with psilocybin with

724
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:41,040
terment relieving anxiety and depression

725
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:43,710
among terminally ill cancer patients in

726
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:48,090
one session and the researchers at NYU

727
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:51,810
and John Hopkins say the relief that

728
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:53,850
people found from depression these

729
00:33:00,320 --> 00:32:56,760
terminal cancer patients and anxiety was

730
00:33:03,950 --> 00:33:00,330
directly related to the intensity of the

731
00:33:05,420 --> 00:33:03,960
mystical experience okay and let me just

732
00:33:08,390 --> 00:33:05,430
emphasize one thing you said there are

733
00:33:11,210 --> 00:33:08,400
some beautiful reproductions in the book

734
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:11,220
in full color that really come through

735
00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:12,930
and are an important part of this story

736
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:15,870
so we got to encourage anyone who's

737
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:19,530
interested in this to pick up you know a

738
00:33:23,330 --> 00:33:22,050
hard copy or I mean a paperback copy of

739
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:23,340
the book is really is it really well

740
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:25,620
it's all paper it's all paper or okay

741
00:33:30,260 --> 00:33:28,410
let me pursue this one more well what I

742
00:33:32,930 --> 00:33:30,270
want you to pursue though because but

743
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:32,940
when you pursue that the the big gap

744
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:36,270
when you say you know it's a leap to say

745
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:39,810
our start with question 1 are they there

746
00:33:44,450 --> 00:33:42,000
and you convincingly say yes they're

747
00:33:47,570 --> 00:33:44,460
there and then you say why they're there

748
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:47,580
but there's kind of a big gap because

749
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:50,640
when we talk about Christianity when you

750
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:53,210
talk about even the life of Jesus I mean

751
00:33:59,120 --> 00:33:57,480
highly controversial among many many

752
00:34:02,120 --> 00:33:59,130
biblical scholars and we've had a lot of

753
00:34:04,550 --> 00:34:02,130
amount in the show in terms of even

754
00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:04,560
connecting this art and some of the

755
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:07,260
stories that are this art depicts from

756
00:34:10,750 --> 00:34:09,450
the Bible are highly questionable in

757
00:34:13,220 --> 00:34:10,760
terms of whether those are real

758
00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:13,230
historical events there's also that

759
00:34:16,490 --> 00:34:15,300
connection that we have to kind of make

760
00:34:20,139 --> 00:34:16,500
in terms of

761
00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:20,149
if a lot of people are having the

762
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,080
psychedelic experience and the

763
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:24,320
connection to the divine does that

764
00:34:30,950 --> 00:34:28,770
necessarily connect to Christian history

765
00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:30,960
in the way that you're connecting it

766
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,700
right okay first of all we know from the

767
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:37,679
anthropological record that many

768
00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:40,740
cultures have used psychedelics and

769
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:42,750
continued to use them in the religious

770
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:44,480
experience we know that Christianity

771
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:47,730
evolved in a circumvented Turanian area

772
00:34:53,839 --> 00:34:51,260
that was rife with mystery cults and

773
00:34:56,990 --> 00:34:53,849
esoteric religions including the Greek

774
00:35:00,830 --> 00:34:57,000
Allison Ian mysteries which went on from

775
00:35:02,990 --> 00:35:00,840
1500 BC to 400 AD when Christianity

776
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:03,000
became the official religion of the

777
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:06,090
Roman Empire so we know that that was in

778
00:35:11,089 --> 00:35:08,570
the area and that knowledge of it

779
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:11,099
including in ancient Egypt was fairly

780
00:35:19,070 --> 00:35:17,040
common number two we know that the there

781
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:19,080
are multiple pathways we are not saying

782
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:22,200
that psychedelics are the only pathway

783
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:24,089
to experience the divine there are

784
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:25,710
multiple pathways that different

785
00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:27,660
cultures have explored but this is

786
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:29,550
definitely one of them

787
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:31,260
and number three let me come back

788
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,570
because I think it's very important that

789
00:35:38,089 --> 00:35:36,000
your listeners understand what we're

790
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:38,099
talking about in the artwork let me take

791
00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:41,730
you to plate six in our book in the tiny

792
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:45,150
church parish church of st. Martin to

793
00:35:50,260 --> 00:35:47,520
Vic in central France we walk into this

794
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:50,270
church there are beautiful beautiful

795
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:53,490
thousand-year-old frescoes on the wall

796
00:35:59,599 --> 00:35:56,910
and here is Christ's entry into

797
00:36:01,700 --> 00:35:59,609
Jerusalem crisis riding on the ass his

798
00:36:03,950 --> 00:36:01,710
disciples are walking behind him and the

799
00:36:06,260 --> 00:36:03,960
joyful youth who are greeting him this

800
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:06,270
is plate 6 in the book the psychedelic

801
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:08,490
Gospels are holding on not to palm

802
00:36:16,730 --> 00:36:11,790
leaves but to the stem of a group of 5

803
00:36:19,310 --> 00:36:16,740
large 10 psilocybin mushrooms and size

804
00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:19,320
matters in Romanesque art and these are

805
00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:21,750
very large as large almost as the heads

806
00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:23,670
of the youth because the artist has sent

807
00:36:28,220 --> 00:36:25,980
us that this is important unmistakable

808
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:28,230
unmistakable and anyone can get it plate

809
00:36:32,329 --> 00:36:30,089
6 it's right there the most

810
00:36:35,059 --> 00:36:32,339
now go read biblical scholar Robert

811
00:36:40,039 --> 00:36:35,069
price about what he thinks about the

812
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:40,049
likelihood and the the extremely just

813
00:36:46,279 --> 00:36:43,440
impossible to fathom story that this was

814
00:36:48,049 --> 00:36:46,289
a historical event that this person

815
00:36:50,809 --> 00:36:48,059
Jesus even if we accept that there was

816
00:36:53,180 --> 00:36:50,819
this historical Jesus was riding on the

817
00:36:55,849 --> 00:36:53,190
ass for Donkey into Jerusalem he will

818
00:36:59,870 --> 00:36:55,859
shred that to pieces so that's my point

819
00:37:01,549 --> 00:36:59,880
yeah you know either it not both don't

820
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:01,559
one doesn't lead to the other

821
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:04,710
this doesn't I do get to you I do get

822
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:07,680
your point and I cite other religious

823
00:37:12,799 --> 00:37:10,170
scholars who will pull you know counter

824
00:37:16,099 --> 00:37:12,809
that and argue that this was an

825
00:37:18,430 --> 00:37:16,109
historical event as we go down and his

826
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:18,440
Julie and I looked to the next wall

827
00:37:22,579 --> 00:37:20,609
perpendicular to this one there's the

828
00:37:24,370 --> 00:37:22,589
towers of Jerusalem and there's the

829
00:37:27,370 --> 00:37:24,380
youth again on top of these towers

830
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:27,380
cutting down with long knives

831
00:37:33,859 --> 00:37:30,240
psychedelic mushrooms and if that's not

832
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:33,869
enough that towers of Jerusalem are over

833
00:37:40,609 --> 00:37:37,410
the next fresco which is a broad table

834
00:37:42,380 --> 00:37:40,619
depicting the Last Supper with Jesus and

835
00:37:44,779 --> 00:37:42,390
His disciples with Judas on the other

836
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:44,789
side of the table and what's on the

837
00:37:49,339 --> 00:37:45,470
table

838
00:37:52,220 --> 00:37:49,349
these same mushroom caps with the same

839
00:37:54,799 --> 00:37:52,230
long knives and if that's not enough if

840
00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:54,809
that's not sufficient the artist has

841
00:38:01,010 --> 00:37:58,410
skillfully drawn mushrooms into the hems

842
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:01,020
of the disciples in other the artists

843
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:03,569
are telling us at least for these

844
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:06,960
artists these Benedictine monks who made

845
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:10,710
these frescoes at this time in the early

846
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:13,650
12th century the 1100s these were

847
00:38:18,140 --> 00:38:16,890
prominently displayed art historian some

848
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:18,150
art historians if have called these

849
00:38:22,730 --> 00:38:20,520
branches are trees because they don't

850
00:38:24,799 --> 00:38:22,740
know mycology and this is part of the

851
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:24,809
problem we've had is because theologians

852
00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:27,930
art historians church historians tour

853
00:38:31,849 --> 00:38:30,270
guides they don't know mycology they as

854
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:31,859
one of them said to me want to prominent

855
00:38:36,589 --> 00:38:33,990
art historian i wouldn't know a mushroom

856
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:36,599
if i saw one so this is why we need an

857
00:38:41,299 --> 00:38:38,460
interdisciplinary approach and this is

858
00:38:42,570 --> 00:38:41,309
why we call julie and i for the

859
00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:42,580
establishment of an entity

860
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:44,950
Neri committee to evaluate this

861
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:48,910
controversial theory right and you know

862
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:51,760
we're we're like connecting a 90% of

863
00:38:55,950 --> 00:38:53,230
this and we're just kind of talking past

864
00:38:59,280 --> 00:38:55,960
each other on the rest so great great

865
00:39:01,590 --> 00:38:59,290
work fantastic deconstruction of this

866
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:01,600
art and we will have to talk about how

867
00:39:07,170 --> 00:39:04,570
other people haven't done quite as good

868
00:39:09,390 --> 00:39:07,180
a job and while let's stop and talk

869
00:39:11,970 --> 00:39:09,400
about that now because other people have

870
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:11,980
taken on this task and it's turned into

871
00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:15,310
this wild mushroom hunt where mushrooms

872
00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:18,190
start popping up everywhere so maybe we

873
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:20,920
return to an earlier question of you

874
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:25,020
know the rigor that must be applied to

875
00:39:30,930 --> 00:39:28,330
carefully narrowing our focus in terms

876
00:39:32,430 --> 00:39:30,940
of what is a mushroom and what isn't

877
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:32,440
right you want to talk about that at all

878
00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:35,920
no absolutely and this has been by the

879
00:39:41,150 --> 00:39:37,630
works of certain scholars who start to

880
00:39:44,810 --> 00:39:41,160
see mushrooms everywhere a disservice to

881
00:39:48,420 --> 00:39:44,820
those of us who are trying to establish

882
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:48,430
a scientific basis and a peer-review

883
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:51,490
conversation regarding you know the holy

884
00:39:57,090 --> 00:39:53,370
mushroom theory and its role in

885
00:39:59,220 --> 00:39:57,100
Christianity and in other religions the

886
00:40:03,360 --> 00:39:59,230
disservice comes about in several ways

887
00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:03,370
one and the the basic rule of

888
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:05,230
anthropology's you have to go do

889
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:07,270
fieldwork you have to go to the site you

890
00:40:10,140 --> 00:40:08,710
have to live it you have to breathe it

891
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:10,150
you have to look at it from every

892
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:12,640
direction linguistically culturally

893
00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:16,450
historically what if you're going to do

894
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:18,430
this and an armchair approach these

895
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:20,650
scholars are going to pull images from

896
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:23,650
different churches off of the internet

897
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:26,530
and in doing so these images are hard to

898
00:40:30,570 --> 00:40:28,690
decipher or they're corrupted and

899
00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:30,580
they're going to make mistakes for

900
00:40:34,590 --> 00:40:32,590
example in one of the images Julie and I

901
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:34,600
were planning based on one of these

902
00:40:41,310 --> 00:40:38,710
scholars representations which scholar

903
00:40:44,340 --> 00:40:41,320
this in this case this is Jana Erwin in

904
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:44,350
his book the holy mushroom and he shows

905
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:50,290
an image of the st. Varga from the abbey

906
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:51,190
of eichstätt

907
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:55,790
in Germany holding a white stem and

908
00:40:59,920 --> 00:40:58,130
it has a mushroom what looks like a red

909
00:41:02,650 --> 00:40:59,930
and white cap on the top of it

910
00:41:06,910 --> 00:41:02,660
we were about as and as we described in

911
00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:06,920
the chapter on st. Bernard secret we

912
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:11,420
were about to go off to ice taught us to

913
00:41:17,770 --> 00:41:15,230
the Wahlberg the Abbey of eichstätt

914
00:41:20,290 --> 00:41:17,780
near Munich to photograph and look at

915
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:20,300
this when looking at this image that we

916
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:24,010
were carrying with us from our ones book

917
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:26,570
Julie looked at and said wait that has a

918
00:41:34,450 --> 00:41:30,890
square bottom and it has straight lines

919
00:41:37,450 --> 00:41:34,460
drawn across what's supposed to be the

920
00:41:40,210 --> 00:41:37,460
mushroom bulb that's not a bulb that's a

921
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:40,220
veil and it's reputed that that st. bar

922
00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:44,210
Borghi had a moment a healing ointment

923
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:46,820
started leaking from her her relics and

924
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:49,850
that that was collected and is the

925
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:52,730
object of the worship of pilgrims and

926
00:41:59,560 --> 00:41:55,730
visitors who go there and then we had to

927
00:42:02,860 --> 00:41:59,570
say thank goodness we saw this so one

928
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:02,870
it's the depiction or the interpretation

929
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:05,330
of images that look like mushrooms as

930
00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:09,200
mushrooms secondly it results in seeing

931
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:11,510
mushrooms where there are no mushrooms

932
00:42:17,110 --> 00:42:15,200
the cover of our book indicates is taken

933
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:17,120
from the Great Canterbury Psalter and

934
00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:20,210
it's from a drawing in the beginning of

935
00:42:25,210 --> 00:42:22,520
this illuminated Bible that shows God

936
00:42:26,590 --> 00:42:25,220
creating plants as the Latin says it but

937
00:42:28,270 --> 00:42:26,600
when you look at it it's not God

938
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:28,280
creating plants if you look at the cover

939
00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:30,850
of our book it's God creating

940
00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:33,140
psychoactive red and white amadito

941
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:36,590
mushrooms and also psilocybin mushrooms

942
00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:38,960
which turn a characteristic blue when

943
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:40,760
exposed to oxygen

944
00:42:48,930 --> 00:42:45,770
well another author um rush says that

945
00:42:51,850 --> 00:42:48,940
Jesus has something in his hands and

946
00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:51,860
there is nothing in his hand when you

947
00:42:58,810 --> 00:42:56,080
get a clear image which we did from the

948
00:43:03,280 --> 00:42:58,820
French National Library where the

949
00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:03,290
original set Canterbury Salter is so

950
00:43:07,660 --> 00:43:05,420
this becomes another problem the third

951
00:43:09,339 --> 00:43:07,670
problem is not only when you see

952
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:09,349
mushrooms where there are none

953
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:11,569
and you don't do the anthropological

954
00:43:17,709 --> 00:43:14,089
failed work on the site but then you

955
00:43:19,059 --> 00:43:17,719
start to say as rush does that since the

956
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:19,069
mushroom is so important

957
00:43:26,529 --> 00:43:21,890
there are many metaphors for it a halo

958
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:26,539
blood nails etc and we have to develop a

959
00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:29,650
symbolism and this under that framework

960
00:43:35,709 --> 00:43:32,569
anything you want to almost anything you

961
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:35,719
can look at can have a possible mushroom

962
00:43:39,729 --> 00:43:37,670
imagery in it no I don't want to say it

963
00:43:43,509 --> 00:43:39,739
that way there are many symbols that can

964
00:43:47,199 --> 00:43:43,519
be interpreted as mushrooms so we argue

965
00:43:50,019 --> 00:43:47,209
vigorously against this approach we

966
00:43:51,969 --> 00:43:50,029
argue for in-depth fieldwork and we know

967
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:51,979
that given as we've said the

968
00:43:56,589 --> 00:43:53,690
controversial nature of our theory we

969
00:43:58,829 --> 00:43:56,599
call for the establishment of an

970
00:44:01,209 --> 00:43:58,839
interdisciplinary Committee of

971
00:44:04,509 --> 00:44:01,219
recognized scholars who will evaluate

972
00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:04,519
our work which we believe and I don't

973
00:44:09,370 --> 00:44:07,190
say this lightly is as significant as

974
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:09,380
the finding of the Dead Sea scrolls and

975
00:44:14,609 --> 00:44:12,430
the Gnostic Gospels - a reinterpretation

976
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,619
potential reinterpretation of

977
00:44:18,759 --> 00:44:16,880
Christianity what is that

978
00:44:19,089 --> 00:44:18,769
reinterpretation ok so here's the big

979
00:44:21,130 --> 00:44:19,099
payoff

980
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:21,140
what's the reinterpretation of

981
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:23,359
Christianity what's the bottom line and

982
00:44:26,979 --> 00:44:25,249
in particular because a lot of Christian

983
00:44:27,729 --> 00:44:26,989
people and I'm not a Christian but a lot

984
00:44:30,459 --> 00:44:27,739
of Christian people

985
00:44:33,729 --> 00:44:30,469
what is the reinterpretation of the life

986
00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:33,739
of Jesus the reinterpretation is that

987
00:44:38,589 --> 00:44:36,319
during the missing years Jesus could

988
00:44:42,099 --> 00:44:38,599
have gone to India but we all we argue

989
00:44:44,650 --> 00:44:42,109
that he went to Egypt where he learned

990
00:44:47,949 --> 00:44:44,660
these sacred rites that were practiced

991
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:47,959
by the Egyptians to leave the body and

992
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:51,170
return while alive and to become a being

993
00:44:55,930 --> 00:44:53,690
of light and he learned the rituals of

994
00:44:59,229 --> 00:44:55,940
the sacred mushrooms which he

995
00:45:01,779 --> 00:44:59,239
incorporated into his teachings and into

996
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:01,789
his healings so in other words if our

997
00:45:08,009 --> 00:45:05,569
theory is correct then the master story

998
00:45:12,039 --> 00:45:08,019
of Christianity would have to be

999
00:45:15,249 --> 00:45:12,049
dramatically revised to incorporate the

1000
00:45:18,549 --> 00:45:15,259
role of psychedelics in the teaching and

1001
00:45:20,650 --> 00:45:18,559
healing mission of Jesus and in plate 14

1002
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:20,660
of our book there's a very interesting

1003
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:22,570
photo that we disc

1004
00:45:29,250 --> 00:45:26,140
of Jesus on his healing mission after he

1005
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:29,260
is baptized by John the Baptist and it

1006
00:45:36,660 --> 00:45:33,040
is him placing his head on the lepers

1007
00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:36,670
head and the Latin scrolls say the

1008
00:45:42,330 --> 00:45:40,380
following the the leper says for example

1009
00:45:44,660 --> 00:45:42,340
Jesus says to the leper

1010
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:44,670
you know do you want to be cleansed and

1011
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:47,110
you know when the leper says to Jesus

1012
00:45:53,130 --> 00:45:49,450
master if you want to you may cleanse me

1013
00:45:55,380 --> 00:45:53,140
and the leper says back I want to be

1014
00:45:59,490 --> 00:45:55,390
cleansed but the scroll that the leper

1015
00:46:01,890 --> 00:45:59,500
is holding unfolds not to Jesus but to a

1016
00:46:04,740 --> 00:46:01,900
psychedelic mushroom that Jesus is

1017
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:04,750
suspended above and we know that in many

1018
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:08,970
shamanic cultures psychedelics ayahuasca

1019
00:46:16,350 --> 00:46:13,930
ebo gain psilocybin peyote among the

1020
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:16,360
Huichol in the Korra of Mexico we're

1021
00:46:22,140 --> 00:46:18,610
used for healing so here is a direct

1022
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:22,150
reference reference to it to take this

1023
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:25,210
even further Alex what does it mean we

1024
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:27,730
want to talk about enigmatic let's look

1025
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:29,920
at the New Testament gospel of john john

1026
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:33,970
6 51 through 56 where jesus says whoever

1027
00:46:39,150 --> 00:46:36,610
whoso eateth of my flesh and drinketh my

1028
00:46:41,490 --> 00:46:39,160
blood hath eternal life and i will raise

1029
00:46:43,740 --> 00:46:41,500
him up on the last day he that eateth my

1030
00:46:47,010 --> 00:46:43,750
flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in

1031
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:47,020
me and i in him now look we do not

1032
00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:48,730
believe that Jesus was encouraging

1033
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:50,340
cannibalism this would have been

1034
00:46:56,670 --> 00:46:54,490
anathema repugnant to both Romans and

1035
00:46:59,610 --> 00:46:56,680
Jews alike and the early Christians were

1036
00:47:04,110 --> 00:46:59,620
all Jews we believe that he is talking

1037
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:04,120
about the sacred mushroom and I can take

1038
00:47:08,730 --> 00:47:07,060
that further because in the chapter on

1039
00:47:11,220 --> 00:47:08,740
the Kingdom of Heaven we go back into

1040
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:11,230
the Gnostic Gospels which were

1041
00:47:16,290 --> 00:47:13,930
supposedly the the representations and

1042
00:47:19,020 --> 00:47:16,300
the words of the of the living Jesus and

1043
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:19,030
we're buried in the sands of Egypt from

1044
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:22,330
200 on and Jesus says to his disciples

1045
00:47:26,370 --> 00:47:24,370
it's in the Gospel of Thomas compare me

1046
00:47:28,890 --> 00:47:26,380
to someone and tell me who I'm like and

1047
00:47:30,690 --> 00:47:28,900
Thomas replies master my mouth is holy

1048
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:30,700
and capable of saying whom you are alike

1049
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,350
and Jesus says I am NOT your mad

1050
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:36,480
stir because you have drunk you have

1051
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:38,400
become intoxicated from the bubbling

1052
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:40,650
spring which I have measured out hee hoo

1053
00:47:45,530 --> 00:47:42,930
drinketh from my mouth will become like

1054
00:47:47,570 --> 00:47:45,540
me I shall become he and the things that

1055
00:47:50,990 --> 00:47:47,580
are hidden will be revealed to him now

1056
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:51,000
listen here for those of you who are not

1057
00:47:55,850 --> 00:47:53,250
familiar with this passage he is saying

1058
00:47:59,840 --> 00:47:55,860
to Thomas you have drunk you have become

1059
00:48:02,120 --> 00:47:59,850
intoxicated and visionary from this

1060
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:02,130
drink that I have measured out in other

1061
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:03,930
words Jesus is saying I measured it out

1062
00:48:09,140 --> 00:48:06,330
I know the dose and if you drink from

1063
00:48:12,410 --> 00:48:09,150
what I offer you will become like me you

1064
00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:12,420
will have a transpersonal mystical

1065
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:14,520
experience and I will become like you

1066
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:16,650
and all things that are hidden will be

1067
00:48:21,350 --> 00:48:18,720
revealed as Jesus said the kingdom of

1068
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:21,360
heaven lo look not here or there the

1069
00:48:26,270 --> 00:48:23,970
kingdom of heaven is within so we

1070
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:26,280
believe this is in the language of that

1071
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:29,220
time a reference to saying that this

1072
00:48:34,190 --> 00:48:32,160
heavenly world this supernatural world

1073
00:48:35,810 --> 00:48:34,200
this mystical world which gets described

1074
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:35,820
in different terms in different cultures

1075
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:39,510
is revealed from within by taking this

1076
00:48:44,930 --> 00:48:42,510
drink from the psychoactive plants

1077
00:48:46,820 --> 00:48:44,940
that's where we really believe there is

1078
00:48:48,980 --> 00:48:46,830
a revision of the master story of

1079
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:48,990
Christianity but it is not a destruction

1080
00:48:53,540 --> 00:48:51,480
of belief in Jesus or a disappointment

1081
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:53,550
I've heard you say this before that do

1082
00:49:01,250 --> 00:48:56,370
you think for a second that this idea

1083
00:49:06,590 --> 00:49:01,260
that recasting Jesus from this born of a

1084
00:49:08,780 --> 00:49:06,600
virgin son of God God on earth being to

1085
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:08,790
someone who's well schooled in and

1086
00:49:15,590 --> 00:49:13,110
theage ins and healing do you through

1087
00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:15,600
their there is no way that's going to

1088
00:49:22,190 --> 00:49:18,990
fly with modern day Christianity well it

1089
00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:22,200
flies with brother David Stendhal Rost

1090
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:26,000
and and hear me out on this because

1091
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:30,410
whether you believe in all the other

1092
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:34,710
stories about the Bible you can and it

1093
00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:37,770
is not contradictory to a belief system

1094
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:39,720
that says that Jesus was the son of God

1095
00:49:48,180 --> 00:49:43,890
if that is your belief to contemplate

1096
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,190
that he could have realized his divinity

1097
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:50,319
through and theagenes is there is

1098
00:49:54,750 --> 00:49:52,690
divinity and sense of immortality which

1099
00:49:56,910 --> 00:49:54,760
is what we hear that these psychedelic

1100
00:50:00,180 --> 00:49:56,920
plants do from soma in the Rig Veda

1101
00:50:02,490 --> 00:50:00,190
Jerry this Jesus plus thing just isn't

1102
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:02,500
going to fly I mean we got to kind of

1103
00:50:10,349 --> 00:50:06,880
get down to the core issue of who was

1104
00:50:15,569 --> 00:50:10,359
Jesus and are you suggesting that Jesus

1105
00:50:19,050 --> 00:50:15,579
was this magician herbalist who was a

1106
00:50:20,730 --> 00:50:19,060
healer or is he this divine being and

1107
00:50:22,589 --> 00:50:20,740
for I guess to start there we have to

1108
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:22,599
say do we believe that there are divine

1109
00:50:26,730 --> 00:50:24,400
beings do we believe that their beings

1110
00:50:29,730 --> 00:50:26,740
that are somehow different are somehow

1111
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:29,740
straddling this extended consciousness

1112
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:31,930
realm in this realm what do you think

1113
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:34,240
about that question and then the big

1114
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:37,510
question is who was Jesus Alex I believe

1115
00:50:43,530 --> 00:50:40,000
we're all divine beings where that's and

1116
00:50:46,829 --> 00:50:43,540
we all can realize that through

1117
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:46,839
psychedelic or other pathways to the

1118
00:50:51,059 --> 00:50:48,640
divine and I think that's what the

1119
00:50:53,250 --> 00:50:51,069
teaching was and this is what we find in

1120
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:53,260
the Gnostic Gospels that Jesus did not

1121
00:50:59,280 --> 00:50:55,839
come to save humanity from sin but to

1122
00:51:03,660 --> 00:50:59,290
teach enlightenment that God and man

1123
00:51:05,579 --> 00:51:03,670
were not other but are one and this is

1124
00:51:07,230 --> 00:51:05,589
the teachings of the Gnostic Gospels we

1125
00:51:09,660 --> 00:51:07,240
believe this is part of the to true

1126
00:51:12,359 --> 00:51:09,670
teachings of early Christianity and

1127
00:51:15,089 --> 00:51:12,369
that's where certainly there's going to

1128
00:51:17,339 --> 00:51:15,099
be dispute with orchid Orthodox Orthodox

1129
00:51:17,609 --> 00:51:17,349
Christianity but think about it for a

1130
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:17,619
minute

1131
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:20,410
the visionary experience the inspired

1132
00:51:25,470 --> 00:51:22,450
experience the missile a mystical

1133
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:25,480
experience is very prized throughout the

1134
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:27,970
Bible from the early Old Testament to

1135
00:51:33,059 --> 00:51:30,640
certainly the book of Revelation and so

1136
00:51:37,819 --> 00:51:33,069
if we're going to move in a paradigm

1137
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:37,829
shift from ritual at the beginnings to

1138
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:42,480
analysis of Christian texts and-and-and

1139
00:51:50,579 --> 00:51:46,720
Gospels from the printing press on to

1140
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:50,589
now considering that all of us can have

1141
00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:53,410
a direct experience of the divine no

1142
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:55,240
matter in what is your religious

1143
00:52:00,329 --> 00:51:58,000
framework whether it be Hindu whether it

1144
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:00,339
be a Judaic whether it be those people

1145
00:52:03,340 --> 00:52:01,370
those

1146
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:03,350
many people who in the Pew survey say I

1147
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:05,750
am spiritual and not religious because

1148
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:07,910
look at this we are all looking for our

1149
00:52:14,050 --> 00:52:11,450
place in the cosmos and if psychedelics

1150
00:52:17,260 --> 00:52:14,060
provides one for some portion of the

1151
00:52:20,740 --> 00:52:17,270
population this is why Julie and I in

1152
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:20,750
our book encourage the foundation of

1153
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:24,410
sacred centers as legal the legalization

1154
00:52:28,450 --> 00:52:26,240
of psychedelics to be used in sacred

1155
00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:28,460
centers for personal growth and

1156
00:52:34,060 --> 00:52:31,180
religious exploration which should be

1157
00:52:35,890 --> 00:52:34,070
allowed under the First Amendment of the

1158
00:52:38,410 --> 00:52:35,900
United States Constitution which

1159
00:52:41,290 --> 00:52:38,420
requires that there be no prohibition on

1160
00:52:43,390 --> 00:52:41,300
the freedom of religion now coming back

1161
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:43,400
to the more controversial issue look it

1162
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:45,650
took 300 years for the Catholic Church

1163
00:52:51,820 --> 00:52:49,310
to forgive - to apologize to Galileo for

1164
00:52:53,530 --> 00:52:51,830
showing him during the Inquisition the

1165
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:53,540
instruments of torture to get him to

1166
00:53:00,010 --> 00:52:55,370
recant what he saw through his telescope

1167
00:53:02,830 --> 00:53:00,020
we hope it will not take 300 years for

1168
00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:02,840
the Catholic Church or for Judaism which

1169
00:53:07,150 --> 00:53:04,730
we couldn't get into in this book to

1170
00:53:11,310 --> 00:53:07,160
acknowledge the role of psychedelics as

1171
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:11,320
having a valuable experience and

1172
00:53:17,050 --> 00:53:14,480
existential contribution to people's

1173
00:53:21,340 --> 00:53:17,060
religious experience very well said and

1174
00:53:23,410 --> 00:53:21,350
but that's a huge huge topic that you're

1175
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:23,420
tackling here and you're just doing it

1176
00:53:27,850 --> 00:53:24,890
in a very thoughtful deep way

1177
00:53:29,950 --> 00:53:27,860
one last question or question area that

1178
00:53:33,250 --> 00:53:29,960
you just kind of dipped into with that

1179
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:33,260
last response and that is you know what

1180
00:53:41,740 --> 00:53:37,610
do we make of the dark deep state part

1181
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:41,750
of this so anyone who's looked into LSD

1182
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:44,930
psilocybin as well you know you're going

1183
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:47,690
to run into MK ULTRA you're going to run

1184
00:53:55,450 --> 00:53:51,890
into Timothy Leary being co-opted by the

1185
00:53:59,950 --> 00:53:55,460
FBI and the CIA we're going to run into

1186
00:54:04,270 --> 00:53:59,960
mind-control it's not all white light

1187
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:04,280
when we look at psychedelics is it and

1188
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:07,730
do you have concerns there when you talk

1189
00:54:12,820 --> 00:54:10,640
about hey you know the freedom of

1190
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:12,830
expression the freedom of thought the

1191
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:14,930
freedom to do what you want with your

1192
00:54:21,099 --> 00:54:17,690
consciousness this seems to be a topic

1193
00:54:23,260 --> 00:54:21,109
that the deep state is very interested

1194
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:23,270
in and has been in for quite a while and

1195
00:54:27,549 --> 00:54:25,609
they're read of what our rights should

1196
00:54:30,490 --> 00:54:27,559
be seems to be quite different than what

1197
00:54:32,829 --> 00:54:30,500
you're talking about yeah we touch on

1198
00:54:34,750 --> 00:54:32,839
that in a footnote because look we

1199
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:34,760
couldn't touch up get into Judaism in

1200
00:54:39,549 --> 00:54:36,170
this book we couldn't get into these

1201
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:39,559
deep state arguments I encourage you to

1202
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:43,040
read acid dreams which reveals through

1203
00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:45,050
freedom of information additional deep

1204
00:54:49,839 --> 00:54:46,990
state information about the MKULTRA

1205
00:54:52,329 --> 00:54:49,849
horrible experiments they did on LSD

1206
00:54:56,109 --> 00:54:52,339
giving LSD to soldiers without their

1207
00:55:00,160 --> 00:54:56,119
knowledge or permission etc both the US

1208
00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:00,170
and the Soviets explored this as as

1209
00:55:07,540 --> 00:55:02,750
tools of mind-control as truth serums as

1210
00:55:11,020 --> 00:55:07,550
battlefield instruments and they don't

1211
00:55:13,839 --> 00:55:11,030
seem to work for a variety of reasons

1212
00:55:17,890 --> 00:55:13,849
certainly that element is there we do

1213
00:55:21,579 --> 00:55:17,900
not explore it in our book but we do

1214
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:21,589
believe that if the theory were true

1215
00:55:30,099 --> 00:55:26,210
that the CIA spread psychedelics

1216
00:55:34,539 --> 00:55:30,109
including LSD throughout the country in

1217
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:34,549
order to try to disarm the very powerful

1218
00:55:40,809 --> 00:55:37,010
civil rights and anti-war movement they

1219
00:55:42,819 --> 00:55:40,819
absolutely failed and the success of the

1220
00:55:46,089 --> 00:55:42,829
counterculture in many ways in which it

1221
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:46,099
has become almost embedded into many

1222
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:48,410
aspects of American life whether it be

1223
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:52,730
in food or protest or cultural styles

1224
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:56,930
and now the current resurgence of the

1225
00:56:01,660 --> 00:55:59,119
psychedelic Renaissance which is

1226
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:01,670
avoiding the mistakes that Leary and the

1227
00:56:07,839 --> 00:56:04,609
others made perhaps out of innocence

1228
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:07,849
perhaps out of over enthusiasm but false

1229
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:10,130
you know overly promising what these

1230
00:56:15,010 --> 00:56:12,410
drugs can do but by putting these

1231
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:15,020
substances through the rigorous

1232
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:17,839
scientific and medical methodology of

1233
00:56:22,349 --> 00:56:19,130
showing how they can help with

1234
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:22,359
Alzheimer's with cluster headaches with

1235
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:26,480
with relief for cancer patients with

1236
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:28,810
helping first

1237
00:56:34,330 --> 00:56:31,850
responders and our veterans who come

1238
00:56:37,090 --> 00:56:34,340
back traumatized from war this is the

1239
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:37,100
way that which psychedelics are going to

1240
00:56:42,190 --> 00:56:39,650
enter the mainstream in other words as

1241
00:56:44,590 --> 00:56:42,200
we saw with marijuana legalization

1242
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:44,600
follows medicalization and the

1243
00:56:48,670 --> 00:56:46,880
medicalization model is what's driving

1244
00:56:50,290 --> 00:56:48,680
this new science of psychedelics we

1245
00:56:52,210 --> 00:56:50,300
touch on that in the last chapter of our

1246
00:56:54,010 --> 00:56:52,220
book and I encourage your listeners you

1247
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,020
can find us at you can find all of this

1248
00:56:59,470 --> 00:56:56,720
on our website psychedelic Gospels calm

1249
00:57:01,120 --> 00:56:59,480
or you can find our book on Amazon the

1250
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:01,130
psychedelic Gospels or you can follow

1251
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:05,290
our page on Facebook psychedelic Gospels

1252
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:08,000
excellent once again our guest has been

1253
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:11,810
dr. Jerry B Brown who along with his

1254
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:13,730
wife who really is featured pretty

1255
00:57:17,530 --> 00:57:15,110
prominently in the book and played an

1256
00:57:19,570 --> 00:57:17,540
important role in it Julie brown they

1257
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:19,580
together wrote the psychedelic Gospels

1258
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:22,090
the secret history of hallucinogens in

1259
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:24,970
Christianity great job Jerry

1260
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:27,680
congratulations on a very important work

1261
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:30,710
and best of luck with the continued work

1262
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:32,330
that you're doing here thanks again for

1263
00:57:37,420 --> 00:57:35,510
joining me my pleasure thanks again to

1264
00:57:40,930 --> 00:57:37,430
dr. Jerry Brown for joining me today on

1265
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:40,940
skeptic Oh as I laid out in the intro

1266
00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:43,130
and as we hammered on during the

1267
00:57:49,210 --> 00:57:45,440
interview the only question to really

1268
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:49,220
put on the table here is what are we to

1269
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:52,570
make of the fact and I say fact that

1270
00:57:57,850 --> 00:57:55,280
psychedelics were a part of early

1271
00:57:59,170 --> 00:57:57,860
Christian history I guess there's a

1272
00:58:00,910 --> 00:57:59,180
little wiggle room there you could say

1273
00:58:02,260 --> 00:58:00,920
hey they weren't really a part of early

1274
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:02,270
Christian history they were just

1275
00:58:06,850 --> 00:58:04,640
introduced in this art hundreds of

1276
00:58:08,290 --> 00:58:06,860
thousands of years later but that

1277
00:58:10,990 --> 00:58:08,300
doesn't really seem to hold up very well

1278
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:11,000
anyways you get the idea how do you pull

1279
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:13,130
that apart what does this mean for you

1280
00:58:16,990 --> 00:58:14,810
I'd love to hear some Christians weigh

1281
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:17,000
in on that question what does this mean

1282
00:58:21,570 --> 00:58:20,210
for you if you're a non-christian or if

1283
00:58:23,860 --> 00:58:21,580
you're looking at this from the outside

1284
00:58:25,690 --> 00:58:23,870
so would love to get any thoughts you

1285
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:25,700
have on that of course the place to do

1286
00:58:30,430 --> 00:58:28,250
it is through the Skeptical website or

1287
00:58:32,620 --> 00:58:30,440
through the skeptical forum or you can

1288
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:32,630
always email me and don't feel bad if

1289
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:34,610
you've listened to this show months and

1290
00:58:38,950 --> 00:58:36,890
months after it's been out you can still

1291
00:58:40,930 --> 00:58:38,960
start a conversation The Skeptical forum

1292
00:58:41,780 --> 00:58:40,940
and usually people who jump right back

1293
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:41,790
in and

1294
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:43,110
create that dialogue or you can of

1295
00:58:48,380 --> 00:58:45,330
course email me months later and this is

1296
00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:48,390
stuff as you know that I am interested

1297
00:58:53,570 --> 00:58:50,910
in and thinking about so if you're

1298
00:58:55,850 --> 00:58:53,580
thinking about it too great I'd love to

1299
00:58:58,370 --> 00:58:55,860
connect with you so I do have a number

1300
00:59:00,890 --> 00:58:58,380
of interesting shows coming up twists

1301
00:59:03,710 --> 00:59:00,900
and turns that I didn't see coming but

1302
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:03,720
that add a certain s to skeptic code